15 thoughts on “0822-23 NY Times Crossword 22 Aug 23, Tuesday”

  1. 9:22, no errors. Easy enough, but something about it led to a certain degree of fumbling about … 🤨. (And I’m not just trying to make you feel better, Steve … 🙂.)

  2. 17:15, no errors (not just saying that to make Dave and Steve feel better). Had to double check the calendar to see if today was Tuesday. Totally oblivious to 51D, it was difficult to change 61A from WAIF to NAIF.
    57D: talk about padding one’s resume.

  3. 12:17 1 error. Never heard of a bolo / frose.
    I did the Maddow freebie. I expected it would have a real agenda from the comments, but not as bad as I thought. It even included neutral mention of Sean Hannity which was surprising (not that I’m a fan of either pundit). I completed it correctly except stymied by top NW and ended up with errors, only in that one corner. I won’t mention details since folks might wanna try it.

  4. No errors. Same as @nick on FROSE.

    Never heard of it.

    One of these days I won’t have a “never heard of it” day.

    1. Guess the term natick, which I first saw on this blog, can be subjective and that’s why I sort of stopped using it. Azur and naif were gifts to me, maybe because I speak French, while bolo , which you filled in with no hesitation, was way out in left field to me.

      1. Just read the debate that followed below.

        I can see both sides of it. I don’t doubt there are “naticks” that are objectively considered outside of ‘standard knowledge’ , whatever that is, and obscure for most people. But people are probably not going to agree easily on what standard knowledge is, which makes it subjective to that extent.

  5. Some people use the word “Natick” in the subjective way that Glenn does. The original intent was that it should refer to the crossing of two entries that most people would not know. In this particular case, I knew both the actress UZO Aduba (mostly from doing other crosswords) and Côte d’AZUR (from various sources), so it seems particularly inappropriate to describe it as a Natick.

    1. Most people don’t know anything in these crosswords, which makes it pretty disingenuous that you pointed out you knew these things. I’ve pointed that out lots in the past, too. I’ve even pointed out the stiff challenge a lot of these represent, because I really don’t know most of the things in these puzzles. It still amazes me that I can do *any* of them, and still expect the day to come very soon that I won’t be able to do any of them at all myself for similar reasons.

      All that’s really been proven by both responses is here how highly localized the New York Times crossword is (still) for being a nationally and worldwide distributed item. Maybe people in New York and the surrounding area (that includes Quebec) are supposed to know these things, but I know to the point that I don’t even have to take the exercise to ask that most people around here (probably near 100%) won’t know either of those things. As pointed out, “bolo” is a far more apt “known” in these parts due to the influence of Southwest culture (again local area) – to the expectation that a poll would net anywhere from 0-10%.

      There’s absolutely no subjectivity when I or anyone pulls that term out, except for the perceived subjectivity caused by the cultural biases of those that read it.

      1. Most people don’t know anything in these crosswords.

        Did you really mean to write that? I’d characterize it as the same kind of hyperbole that some employ when they say, “Nobody could possibly finish this stupid puzzle.” (They say it even when lots of prior posts have reported doing exactly that.)

        I pointed out that I knew both UZO and AZUR as an aside, but I suspect that many solvers of the NYT crossword watch “Orange is the New Black” (even though I don’t) and have at least a nodding acquaintance with certain place names in Europe. It may be true that fewer of the people in Orchard, Iowa (where I grew up) are aware of the French Riviera, but I’m wouldn’t put it past them to have done a bit of reading and come across certain terms. I guess I do assume that the “people” referred to in “most people” are the solvers of these puzzles and it is true that there are probably a whole lot more of them in New York than there are in Orchard (or wherever it is that you live).

        And I still maintain that the use of the word Natick is highly subjective.

        1. I talk about “most people” when I say that, regardless of whether they’ve ever done crosswords or not. For those that do, that makes “I picked it up doing other crosswords” to be a complete cop-out. Even if you want to go to people that do crosswords I know around me, most don’t do the New York Times crosswords (and look rather badly up me for doing them) simply for reasons I previously described.

          But to get to the root of the issue, if you happen to be part of the 0.01% of the population that might know something in a puzzle, it’s pretty arrogant and stuck up to stand up and say “Since I know it, it’s okay in the puzzle and that everyone knows it too or they’re stupid”.

          As an aside to that, you do that constantly on Bill’s blogs, which makes other readers think those exact same things of you. And this is one reason why even a simple admission that I do the New York Times causes the negative perceptions I get. People by and large are a much greater scope and of greater diversity of experience than the rather tightly confined, insular, echo chamber environment of “those that do the New York Times crossword”. (noting that MA solvers look at “Natick” and see absolutely no problems with it…yet everyone else….) Constructors and editors would be very wise to realize that and take that into account with what they turn out in their puzzles. But they never do and I don’t expect them to do it.

          1. Well, your interpretation of “most people” explains a lot, but it’s not in keeping with Rex Parker’s use of the phrase “the solving public” (see my earlier post, below).

            And, as I pointed out, I (mostly) learned the name Uzo Aduba in a way that is different from how others may have learned it.

            Isn’t it more than a little arrogant to do “The New York Times Crossword Puzzles” and then complain that they all seem to be calibrated for readers of the New York Times and ought to be re-edited?

            I read a while back that a quarter of a million people pay to do these puzzles on a regular basis. I suspect that the number would be even higher now. (Luckily, they don’t all check in on Bill’s blog … 🙂.) As I’ve said before, I think Will Shortz must be doing something right.

            Ignore those “friends” who look askance at you for doing the NYT puzzles. You deserve better … 🙂.

      2. For the record, here is Rex Parker’s statement of his “Natick Principle”:

        “If you include a proper noun in your grid that you cannot reasonably expect more than 1/4 of the solving public to have heard of, you must cross that noun with reasonably common words and phrases or very common names.” How this came to be was the clue – “1A: Town at the eighth mile of the Boston Marathon”.

        [The answer to 1A was “NATICK” and the answer to 1D was “NCWYETH”.]

        Again, I think Glenn and I define “the solving public” differently. And, again, I maintain that applying the principle intrinsically involves some highly subjective judgements.

  6. Someone needs to tell Mr. Silverman what a Tuesday puzzle is supposed to be like👎👎
    Stay safe😀

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